[STovey]

“you’ve each presented an extensive, passionate discussion.”

I disagree with you Kim.

I am the only one that has been extensively clear, and transparent in the discussion.

The other individual refuses to discuss anything other than declaring that others are wrong and that those he declares to be wrong must subjugate themselves to his doctrine without question.

The only one I subjugate myself to is Christ.

“Would you please consider continuing further debate in private messaging?”

To what end?

A person that will not be extensively clear, and transparently in an open forum, will not do so in a private message. And since the individual has no intentions of teaching or informing anyone of what he truly believes, any further discussion is pointless.

[STovey]

“you lash out at me. I asked you specific questions about that passage and your only answers were to attempt a circular argument and to attack me. Shame on you.”

I am pretty sure everyone can sense the contentious spirit to which you wrote those questions. Even if that is not the case; why are you asking questions rather than putting forth your position with words that everyone can read and understand, rather than you expecting everyone to answer your questions as if you have some God given authority over all?

You still haven’t said anything more than; you’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong. You sound like a scratched and skipping record.

I have already discussed my position as well as provide scripture to support my position.

You on the other hand, keep posting scripture references without the scripture text. You continually refuse to state exactly how you interpret those verses and why.

Are you so dull that you believe you can win a debate without posting exactly what you believe along with the verse reference and text?

Why should anyone choose to agree with an individual that claims to be right, all the while refusing to explain how it is that he or she is right?

Post the verses and explain your position or shut up.

At this stage of the discussion, you are nothing more than a contentious prideful man kindling strife.

[STovey]

“Your take on what Paul said is a clear misinterpretation. You know this and that is why you refuse to admit the truth which is found written in the Bible. Does Paul not mention the trumpet? Which trumpet is that? It is very clearly written in the Bible. You have chosen to ignore truth.”

When are you going to stop being an egotistical, argumentative side show and post the verses along with what you think they mean?

Stop expecting people to know what you are thinking; that’s a form of witchcraft, and you are doing nothing but stirring up strife with your bitter and argumentative posts. Stop telling people what they know or do not know. You are not God and therefore do not know what people know.

“Above you wrote; “The Lord’s coming at the rapture is a fly-by, not an actual return to the earth.” Is this the written Word or is this an “interpretation”? You view some passages about believing as an absolute that all you need to do is believe yet have no problem pulling the above out of your hat. You choose to ignore what is plainly written to justify this “fly-by”. “

So, you actually read what I wrote.

Well, that’s something.

It’s too bad you are not able to comprehend what I wrote.

That would be evidence that you are more inclined to the flesh, and not the Spirit.

“With all due respect, you are filling an agenda brought forth by man instead of following the Word of God by flopping from absolutes to interpretations as you see fit. How can you not see this?”

What agenda, and who is the man?

The fact of the matter is; the day is coming when either you or I will be proven wrong. Your interpretation is meaningless without the Spirit guiding you. I have come to what I believe as a result of the Lord’s direction and visitation. I have no problem with you remaining with what you believe therefore remain with it. I will remain with what the Lord has lead me to believe.

Not everything I teach, was taught previously by men.

The Deuteronomy laws of a new wife apply to Christ as the bridegroom, and the Church as His bride and that in turn teaches us of the raptures, the harpazo, the resurrection of the dead in Christ first, the great transformation of we which remain, and the catching away.

The rapture is clearly described in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18. Not only is it clearly described, it is the very definition of what I seen in the vision.

Despite the rapture being clearly described in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18, you are simply too dull minded to both see it, accept it and believe it.

At the same time you accuse others, you are most certainly absolute of what other men have taught you regarding the lack of a rapture.

1Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now, if you don’t like this conversation and discussion of the rapture from the standpoint of a man that has seen it in a vision, you are welcome to exit the conversation.

On the other hand, if you are willing to stop being a triple AAA wretch, and post the verses you have referred to, and your understanding of them, so that people can read exactly where you are coming from, then by all means do so.

As it is, you are accomplishing nothing more than making yourself out to be an uneducated fool that claims to know all things, yet reveals by his lack of dissemination of information, that he knows absolutely nothing.

By the way, what I require of people I follow, not just because it is ethically sound, but because it forces people to be better communicators and you sir, are clearly lacking in the skill.

[STovey]

“Pre trib rapture doctrine comes from man, not God. That is why Jesus did not mention it. It is also why you became so angered with my post, to the point of implying that I was trolling and then put up a wall of verses that really have nothing to do with your point. You have let pride take hold of you.”

Jesus did not tell us all things during His ministry, He left some things for Paul to reveal.

John 15:20: Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

“Watch out that no one deceives you.” – Jesus

I suggest that you take your own advice.

[STovey]

“Just believing in Jesus will not save you from hell. I guarantee you that every demon, fallen angel, lost soul, whoever or whatever that is in hell knows without doubt that Jesus is Lord. They don’t just believe it, they know it. They know that He rules over them, and they know that their time is short.”

If it is true that just believing in Jesus will not save you from hell, then Jesus Himself lied, is a sinner and no one can be saved.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[STovey]

“Do you think it’s possible that you misinterpreted your dream of being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? As to the context of timing.”

It wasn’t a dream, it was a vision.

In a dream, you first go to sleep.

I wasn’t sleeping, I was watching TV.

It was 1 Am and The PTL Club was going off the air

and the intro for Faith for Miracles with Richard L Brooks was on.

A cloud appeared above and too the left of the TV.

“Honestly it doesn’t really matter about the timing of the catching away mentioned in scripture. What really matters is that we know Him and that our lamps are full of oil.”

For a few years I had taken the timing of the rapture as you have just stated; It doesn’t matter.

Then one day as I was about to walk out of my bedroom the question’ “When does the rapture happen, before or after the tribulation went through my mind?”

It doesn’t matter I said.

The next question came as I was walking down the hall; “What is the difference between what you seen, and what John Seen?”

Well, I said; John seen Jesus riding on a horse, I seen Jesus standing on a cloud. Oh… they’re two different events.

The return of Christ that John saw and recorded in Revelation is when Christ returns to the earth with the armies of Heaven which includes the Church His bride.

The vision I saw of Christ standing on the cloud was Christ coming for His bride to fulfill the promise He gave. “I go to prepare a place and if I go I will come again that where I am you may be also.”

John 14:2: In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Until Christ fulfills His promise that where He is, we shall be also, He cannot return to the earth and reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

If the rapture occurs after the tribulation, then where Christ is; right now in heaven, we will never be. For the future is clearly shown in Revelation.

1) Christ returns and defeats the beast and His minions.

2) Christ reigns on earth 1000 years.

3) The absolute last and final battle in which God reigns fire down from heaven.

4) The great white throne judgment.

5) The New Heaven and the New Earth.

The only time we can be with Christ in heaven, is prior to the tribulation period. And according to the law, Christ, being a betrothed man, cannot go out to war before He has taken His bride.

One of the problems many people have when they interpret scripture is that they neglect to take into consideration that God is a God of law and order. God will not violate His own laws. He cannot violate His own laws.

Psalms 89:34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Samuel 15:29: And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Romans 11:29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Hebrews 13:8: Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[STovey]

“If this is the most important thing (which I believe it is), then I believe we need to stop tip toeing around this conversation. Eventually we will all be in one of two places. In hell wishing we were better Christians,”

Being a better or worse Christian does not cause one to go to hell.

Not believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is what sends one to hell.

There will be no true believers in hell, only those that were foolish to think they could gain heaven through their good works.

Contrastive, there will be many Christians in heaven that will be called peasants because they failed to do good works and lay up for them riches in heaven.

“or in Heaven wishing we did more to keep others from going to hell.”

While there will be a time of regret and remorse, that regret and remorse will be short lived as the scriptures state clearly that God will wipe away the tears from their eyes.

Revelation 7:17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 21:4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

“There are many good Christian people that believe that they will be raptured up and will not have to deal with the end times. When I talk to folks about this, I know it may ruffle some feathers so I politely ask them to check their pride. I ask why they believe this, was it from what you were told, or was it from what you discovered by reading the Bible.”

I believe in the rapture for two reasons;

1) It is revealed in scripture by Paul in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18.

You cannot comfort anyone with the idea that they are going to go through the worst time in the history of man on earth.

1Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up(raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It is mentioned by Jesus when He declares Himself to be the Bridegroom. It is expounded on by Jesus when He talks of going to prepare a place for us and then coming to receive us that where He is we will be also.

These statements don’t make much sense to modern day Christians, but the Jews Jesus was speaking too, understood that He was speaking of the wedding ritual where the bride and groom are betrothed, after which the bride returns to her fathers house to prepare to become a wife, and the bridegroom returns to his fathers house and prepares a place for his bride.

John 14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2: In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4: And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Matthew 25:1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Matthew 25:6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

2) I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because the Lord visited me in a vision when I was 17, and in that vision showed me the rapture take place.

In Revelation 3:10; Jesus promised; “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Revelation 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We are Christ’s ambassadors in the earth; prior to a war commencing, nations recall their ambassadors from the nations that they will be waging war with.

2Corinthians 5:20: Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The tribulation period is God’s waging war against the kingdom of hell, to overthrow the kingdom of hell so that all the kingdoms of the this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

Revelation 11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

3) As the bridegroom, Christ cannot return to the earth and conquer the kingdoms of this world until He has first taken His wife. It is irrelevant that Christ cannot die; Christ must obey and fulfill the law.

Matthew 9:14: Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

15: And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Deuteronomy 20:7: And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

After taking His new wife, Christ cannot go out to war or be charged with any business for one year. This makes what some call the boomer rang rapture at the end of the tribulation period impossible.

Deuteronomy 24:5: When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

The wedding of the Jews in Christ’s days was celebrated for 7 days.

Seven days is prophetically 7 years. Those seven years of wedding celebration will occur in heaven while on earth there will be 7 years of tribulation when God’s the Father judges the people on the earth and displays His wrath.

“I point out that this was first preached by a fellow named Darby in the early 1800’s and made more popular with the “left behind” books and movies.”

As I have shown you in the above scriptures, the Rapture has been taught since the days of Christ and the Apostle Paul and is even reference din the Old Testament Law.

“I point out that if what they believe is true, then Jesus is coming back twice, and that is not found in the Bible. A pre-trib rapture would be a very significant event, so why would Jesus fail to mention this when he spoke about the end times?”

It is not true that Jesus would be coming back twice as the second coming is when He sets down on the Mount of Olives and the Mountain splits in two.

At the rapture, Jesus does not touch down on the earth. As Paul revealed in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18, the dead in Christ are raised first, then we which remain are transformed and caught up to meet them in the air.

The Lord’s coming at the rapture is a fly-by, not an actual return to the earth.

The wedding ceremony of the Jews is briefly shown in the wedding of Samson.

Judges 14:1: And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.

2: And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.

3: Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

4: But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

5: Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.

Judges 14:7: And he went down, and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well.

Judges 14:10: So his father went down unto the woman: and Samson made there a feast; for so used the young men to do.

Judges 14:20: But Samson’s wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend.

Judges 15:1: But it came to pass within a while after, in the time of wheat harvest, that Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my wife into the chamber. But her father would not suffer him to go in.

“I point out other Bible verses. I point out how every preacher, reverend, father, brother/sister in Christ that I ask if we are in the end times all say that we are, yet most of them won’t preach from the book of Revelation. On and on.”

Preachers choosing to not preach from the book of Revelation does not in any way, shape or form; make null and void the fact that their is a pre-tribulation rapture.

It may be an indication of whether or not they are truly called to preach, but it does not make null the end times and the soon return of Christ.

I suggest that In the future, you support your theological position with scripture. The only one I am aware of that can read minds is God and while He does observe what is posted on these platforms, He is not a member on this platform.

If you are not willing to do so, then all you are doing is trolling and sowing discord among brethren.

I have found in the past that people refuse to post their bible references because they know that their position will not hold up. On the other hand, there are those that will declare all doctrines wrong and the only thing they post afterwards are bible references without an explanation of what they believe those verse say and mean.

Neither of the two aforementioned actions is the proper way to discuss in biblical theology.