[Granny-Hatchet]

Good questions. First , yes preparing is in the bible. The biggest example is when Joseph interprets Pharaohs dreams. Realizing that they have seven good years, and seven bad years, Joseph is put in charge of putting up provisions during the seven good years. AND by doing so, they had many people coming to them during the bad years asking for help (this is how Joseph was reunited with his family) and I believe the bible states that they did help many.

The old testament also speaks of gleaning. Not harvesting the outer portions of your fields so that the poor can harvest from these.

Now having said that. Do I prepare..yes . Will I feed others? That’s where it gets touchy. Simple answer is yes. However, I know you can’t feed everyone. So, letting people come to my property is a huge no for me. Taking food to Them or at least to a central area is a better idea imo.

Then too, there is the question of “who will I feed”. Some people might disagree with me, and that’s ok. I’m sorry, I’m not just going to hand out food. 1. That makes you a target. 2. There would be those that would say “why help myself if someone else will do the work and help me”

So just like we must do our part in order to have a place in heaven. We must know our Lord and savior ..right? well IMO I will help first and foremost by giving them knowledge. Teach them to grow, to cook, to preserve, to forage, etc etc. If they need help after that, and it’s obvious that they’ve put some effort into it, but just had a hard time of it..I will certainly feed them. If they do nothing with the knowledge. If they decide it’s too much work. Etc etc. Then I’m sorry, I won’t give them handouts. There is a huge difference between a hand up, and a handout.

And yes, if things come to push and shove. It’s going to be really hard to say no sometimes. But it’s something that we all will have to do in that case.

[MartHale7]

You are right about the OT that they left out outer part of the field for the poor. But there is an understand with that…. The poor had to come and do WORK to get the grain, Ruth had to get the grain from the fields to get that food. I have been thinking much the same with those that come that they can work for food. But that would take time for me to know that I could trust them. So many today only want a handout, and not a handup. As you say we all have limits of how much we can help.

[Hebrews12v2]

I am reminded on how Noah was instructed to prepare for his family and the families of animals that were to be under his care on the ark. This was an IMMENSE prep. Besides his family he had to store enough food for all them animals and birds.

Moses was specifically instructed by God to prepare. The people all were told to collect what they could from the Egyptians (Exodus 12:33 – 39) Gold, silver, livestock, grain etc. This was immediate and fast preps. Remember they had these preps all through the 40 years that they were in the desert. (And yes God also provided Manna, clothes that didn’t wear out, etc.)

God had Joseph go through some very trying times to mature him to trust in the Lord. Once that trust had matured, he gave him the opportunity to Prep for the entire Egyptian nation, as well as neighboring nations that traded with Egypt their riches for food.

We see many more instances of prepping. In the time of the Book of Ruth we see the story of Boaz during harvest time collecting grain to store for winter, etc. He instructs the workers to let Ruth Glean from the best parts of the harvest so her and her Mother In Law had food for the future.

The thing with Prepping isn’t if it is Biblical, (it is), But how you use and give that which you have prepped. Prepping is just wisdom for storing enough for the future use of God’s Children. The only Instance of “magical food” was in the Exodus as God wanted the Hebrew families to preserve their flocks for the future homesteads and of course sacrifice.

Faith isn’t trusting God to “magically” provide you food and things in the future. Faith is as James might say “Doing the works of God” in which you make sure to provide for your family, and those in need by using the wisdom and knowledge God gives us to provide for the needs of His children.

I have trouble when “Christians” refuse to use the wisdom and knowledge God gives us to be sensible to do works in faith that it is God’s will. Prepping as a Christian is not “hoarding” nor is it not “trusting God”.

How can you read the Bible and see people ALWAYS working to provide food and things needed for life and think they aren’t trusting God? God tells us to work and prepare. (The 7 virgins needed to prep for a long night and store enough oil for their lamps.

Matthew 25:8

And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

Are you going to be “that” Christian?

[KimC]

@STovey, @Stoutlander. Gentlemen, you’ve each presented an extensive, passionate discussion. It’s clear you both have very strong beliefs about the topic, and seems unlikely that any amount of ongoing debate will change either of your minds. Hopefully you both agree that the bottom line is that we all need to be spiritually ready, because the Lord IS returning, and no matter WHEN He does, being right with God is all that will matter in the end. Would you please consider continuing further debate in private messaging? God bless you both. Respectfully, KimC

[STovey]

“you’ve each presented an extensive, passionate discussion.”

I disagree with you Kim.

I am the only one that has been extensively clear, and transparent in the discussion.

The other individual refuses to discuss anything other than declaring that others are wrong and that those he declares to be wrong must subjugate themselves to his doctrine without question.

The only one I subjugate myself to is Christ.

“Would you please consider continuing further debate in private messaging?”

To what end?

A person that will not be extensively clear, and transparently in an open forum, will not do so in a private message. And since the individual has no intentions of teaching or informing anyone of what he truly believes, any further discussion is pointless.

[Stoutlander]

KimC,

Thank you for your honesty, you are correct. My apologies to you.

[KimC]

Thanks for that. Very gentlemanly of you. No harm, no foul, no worries. All is well. Be blessed in Jesus’ name.

[Southern-Girl-Shea]

Not arguing or choosing sides in this discussion, I wanted to point out the perspective of an inexperienced born-again believer of God such as myself. When I see something like I just read… grown adults arguing like this and “throwing scripture at each other”… I don’t see “Christians” or “believers” defending scripture or beliefs… I see sinful human beings arguing about who is right or more right or wrong or more wrong. This is very poor behavior of which I highly doubt God wanted His message delivered. Every single person who has contributed to that argument has only discredited themselves. I know Mr. Danny and Mrs. Wanda would be upset to see this type of representation under their forum. I am a very inexperienced born-again believer, and I came here because I am trying to learn and pass that learning to my children and their children, Lord willing. This absolutely breaks my heart to see, because I know in my heart that God would also be heartbroken to see an example like this not only being displayed by His children but being shown to His “younger” children. Please be more considerate of who may be witness to your actions. You could negatively affect the faith and salvation of another.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by  Southern-Girl-Shea. Reason: removed "a" as grammatical error

[LakeFlGal]

Hey there. May I recommend Daily Audio Bible? Brian has been reading the bible for 15 years, every single day. I’m about to start my 4th year. Some days it’s hard! Some days it’s wonderful, and some days, you just don’t feel like listening. But, one day, you realize “I’m learning” just by listening, I’m learning what I need to learn. Each of us is on the same path, but few are on the same day of learning. I hope you give it a try. I actually look forward to listening now.

https://dailyaudiobible.com/

[Gypsy61]

I think that reference was an example for being spiritually ready for the Lord’s coming, as we are the bride of Christ.

Proverbs 25:21-22

If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; for so you will heap coals of this on his head, and the Lord will reward you.

Matthew 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink…

Lev.19:18b but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

[Stoutlander]

“Your soul, or your preparation for eternity should be added as the most important verses.”

If this is the most important thing (which I believe it is), then I believe we need to stop tip toeing around this conversation. Eventually we will all be in one of two places. In hell wishing we were better Christians, or in Heaven wishing we did more to keep others from going to hell.

There are many good Christian people that believe that they will be raptured up and will not have to deal with the end times. When I talk to folks about this, I know it may ruffle some feathers so I politely ask them to check their pride. I ask why they believe this, was it from what you were told, or was it from what you discovered by reading the Bible. I point out that this was first preached by a fellow named Darby in the early 1800’s and made more popular with the “left behind” books and movies. I point out that if what they believe is true, then Jesus is coming back twice, and that is not found in the Bible. A pre-trib rapture would be a very significant event, so why would Jesus fail to mention this when he spoke about the end times? I point out other Bible verses. I point out how every preacher, reverend, father, brother/sister in Christ that I ask if we are in the end times all say that we are, yet most of them won’t preach from the book of Revelation. On and on.

Here’s my point. Many folks will acknowledge the truths that I tell them yet do nothing different. People do not want to leave their comfort zone. I believe this conversation is very important because nearly every Christian believes they are going to heaven, yet we are told that it is not the case. Many will compromise just from hunger pains. I have heard “God will understand” from folks that believe they are good Christians. Yes He will, but not in the way they think. We are going to be tested. It will be the hardest test ever given to mankind. I’m saying everyone needs to prepare for this test. If I’m wrong and there is a pre-trib rapture, then great! If I’m right and there isn’t one, then there will be many unprepared folks compromising to the point of getting the mark and saying to themselves “God will understand”. I’ve already heard this and it has barely started. I would humbly ask for folks to learn from the Bible and not from what some people tell them. Please.

[CarolinaCarefree]

I can relate to this. I work with a guy that is the only one in a house of nine that is working. Well at least for the house. His daughter has a job and gets gov help for her three kids (all under 6). But she pays no bills and writes her name on her food so no one else can have it. At least two sons have no jobs at all, because $11 /hr at Hardee’s (walking distance from their house) is not enough. Enough details you get the idea. But what gets me, he complains about needing money all the time, so our boss tries hard to get him at least 40 hrs a week (work is slowing down) and many times he can get an hour or two of over time per week. The leaves early or right at regular time. It’s sad because I use to try to help him when I first meet him. But I have learned in this case you can’t help someone that doesn’t or will not help themselves. They will complain that I need food and then complain that you gave them something they don’t like. Listen to the Still Small Voice and He will guide you as to who to help and who not.

[CarolinaCarefree]

It does. But remember that even when Jesus healed the ten lepers, only one was truly thankful. All the rest went on their merry ways. But he heard the one, that I believe is how we will be, we will be so close to the Spirit that we will know the one.

[STovey]

“If this is the most important thing (which I believe it is), then I believe we need to stop tip toeing around this conversation. Eventually we will all be in one of two places. In hell wishing we were better Christians,”

Being a better or worse Christian does not cause one to go to hell.

Not believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is what sends one to hell.

There will be no true believers in hell, only those that were foolish to think they could gain heaven through their good works.

Contrastive, there will be many Christians in heaven that will be called peasants because they failed to do good works and lay up for them riches in heaven.

“or in Heaven wishing we did more to keep others from going to hell.”

While there will be a time of regret and remorse, that regret and remorse will be short lived as the scriptures state clearly that God will wipe away the tears from their eyes.

Revelation 7:17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 21:4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

“There are many good Christian people that believe that they will be raptured up and will not have to deal with the end times. When I talk to folks about this, I know it may ruffle some feathers so I politely ask them to check their pride. I ask why they believe this, was it from what you were told, or was it from what you discovered by reading the Bible.”

I believe in the rapture for two reasons;

1) It is revealed in scripture by Paul in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18.

You cannot comfort anyone with the idea that they are going to go through the worst time in the history of man on earth.

1Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up(raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It is mentioned by Jesus when He declares Himself to be the Bridegroom. It is expounded on by Jesus when He talks of going to prepare a place for us and then coming to receive us that where He is we will be also.

These statements don’t make much sense to modern day Christians, but the Jews Jesus was speaking too, understood that He was speaking of the wedding ritual where the bride and groom are betrothed, after which the bride returns to her fathers house to prepare to become a wife, and the bridegroom returns to his fathers house and prepares a place for his bride.

John 14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2: In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4: And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Matthew 25:1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Matthew 25:6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

2) I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because the Lord visited me in a vision when I was 17, and in that vision showed me the rapture take place.

In Revelation 3:10; Jesus promised; “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Revelation 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We are Christ’s ambassadors in the earth; prior to a war commencing, nations recall their ambassadors from the nations that they will be waging war with.

2Corinthians 5:20: Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The tribulation period is God’s waging war against the kingdom of hell, to overthrow the kingdom of hell so that all the kingdoms of the this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

Revelation 11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

3) As the bridegroom, Christ cannot return to the earth and conquer the kingdoms of this world until He has first taken His wife. It is irrelevant that Christ cannot die; Christ must obey and fulfill the law.

Matthew 9:14: Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

15: And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Deuteronomy 20:7: And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

After taking His new wife, Christ cannot go out to war or be charged with any business for one year. This makes what some call the boomer rang rapture at the end of the tribulation period impossible.

Deuteronomy 24:5: When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

The wedding of the Jews in Christ’s days was celebrated for 7 days.

Seven days is prophetically 7 years. Those seven years of wedding celebration will occur in heaven while on earth there will be 7 years of tribulation when God’s the Father judges the people on the earth and displays His wrath.

“I point out that this was first preached by a fellow named Darby in the early 1800’s and made more popular with the “left behind” books and movies.”

As I have shown you in the above scriptures, the Rapture has been taught since the days of Christ and the Apostle Paul and is even reference din the Old Testament Law.

“I point out that if what they believe is true, then Jesus is coming back twice, and that is not found in the Bible. A pre-trib rapture would be a very significant event, so why would Jesus fail to mention this when he spoke about the end times?”

It is not true that Jesus would be coming back twice as the second coming is when He sets down on the Mount of Olives and the Mountain splits in two.

At the rapture, Jesus does not touch down on the earth. As Paul revealed in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18, the dead in Christ are raised first, then we which remain are transformed and caught up to meet them in the air.

The Lord’s coming at the rapture is a fly-by, not an actual return to the earth.

The wedding ceremony of the Jews is briefly shown in the wedding of Samson.

Judges 14:1: And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.

2: And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.

3: Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

4: But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

5: Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.

Judges 14:7: And he went down, and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well.

Judges 14:10: So his father went down unto the woman: and Samson made there a feast; for so used the young men to do.

Judges 14:20: But Samson’s wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend.

Judges 15:1: But it came to pass within a while after, in the time of wheat harvest, that Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my wife into the chamber. But her father would not suffer him to go in.

“I point out other Bible verses. I point out how every preacher, reverend, father, brother/sister in Christ that I ask if we are in the end times all say that we are, yet most of them won’t preach from the book of Revelation. On and on.”

Preachers choosing to not preach from the book of Revelation does not in any way, shape or form; make null and void the fact that their is a pre-tribulation rapture.

It may be an indication of whether or not they are truly called to preach, but it does not make null the end times and the soon return of Christ.

I suggest that In the future, you support your theological position with scripture. The only one I am aware of that can read minds is God and while He does observe what is posted on these platforms, He is not a member on this platform.

If you are not willing to do so, then all you are doing is trolling and sowing discord among brethren.

I have found in the past that people refuse to post their bible references because they know that their position will not hold up. On the other hand, there are those that will declare all doctrines wrong and the only thing they post afterwards are bible references without an explanation of what they believe those verse say and mean.

Neither of the two aforementioned actions is the proper way to discuss in biblical theology.

[packrat]

http://www.graceandtruth.net/images/stories/docs/articles/Tithe%202011-01-13%20(1).pdf
Do you think all of this is wrong as well

[MartHale7]

Tithing was both a law in the OT, ( to the Jewish people via the laws of Moses ) and a choice. The choice of Abraham to give 10% of his winnings from the War effort was his choice. Myself I do not see tithing as a requirement for the Christian church mentioned anywhere in the NT, what I do see is free will offerings, and people giving as they can give, not being pressured into giving.

If Christians choose to give 10% of their income that is their choice, there is no issue of that, the trouble is when people say the bible says Christians are to give 10%, then they goto passages that in context were written to Jews, not to the Church.

[Stoutlander]

Just believing in Jesus will not save you from hell. I guarantee you that every demon, fallen angel, lost soul, whoever or whatever that is in hell knows without doubt that Jesus is Lord. They don’t just believe it, they know it. They know that He rules over them, and they know that their time is short.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 -18. What is the context of these passages? Why did Paul tell them this? What were the Thessalonians worried about? How do you get a pre trib rapture out of “After that, we who are still alive and are left…”? Be honest.

What did Jesus Himself say? In John 6:40 and 44 He ends both verses with “and I will raise him up at the last day.” Not the first day. The last day. Read the verses.

When the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age and the sign(s) of Him coming in the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, when does He say the elect will be gathered? Beginning, middle, or end? Read it.

In the book of Revelation, which trumpet call is sounded when Jesus gathers everyone? 1st? 4th? 7th? Read it and find out. Spoiler alert, it’s the same trumpet call that Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians.

Pre trib rapture doctrine comes from man, not God. That is why Jesus did not mention it. It is also why you became so angered with my post, to the point of implying that I was trolling and then put up a wall of verses that really have nothing to do with your point. You have let pride take hold of you.

“Watch out that no one deceives you.” – Jesus

[Pukalani-Farm]

Malachai 3: 6-12 It is all God’s word and it is all referenced throughout.

[MartHale7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSZuId4KTu0

Some things are written to Jews, others to gentiles. Saying a passage is the word of God is like taking the verses…

“Judas went out and hanged himself.”

“Go and do likewise”….

Without proper context, you end up with the wrong meaning.

[MartHale7]

https://www.angelfire.com/va/sovereigngrace/shouldwetithe.html

[Pukalani-Farm]

I go back to what I and someone else mentioned earlier. All interpretation should come from the word of God and the Holy Spirit ONLY through much prayer. Definitely not from the internet. An unbeliever can always interpret the Word to make it say what he wants it to say. But it is “…alive and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, even penetrating as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12. I myself, tithe faithfully because that is what God has called me to do. If it comes down to tithing or paying my electric bill, I will pay the tithe first. And all I can say is because the Lord knows my heart as such, it has never come down to me having to make a choice like that. It’s just like He promises He will do in Malachai chapter 3. God knew we would have a hard time choosing Him over mammon.

[STovey]

“Do you think it’s possible that you misinterpreted your dream of being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? As to the context of timing.”

It wasn’t a dream, it was a vision.

In a dream, you first go to sleep.

I wasn’t sleeping, I was watching TV.

It was 1 Am and The PTL Club was going off the air

and the intro for Faith for Miracles with Richard L Brooks was on.

A cloud appeared above and too the left of the TV.

“Honestly it doesn’t really matter about the timing of the catching away mentioned in scripture. What really matters is that we know Him and that our lamps are full of oil.”

For a few years I had taken the timing of the rapture as you have just stated; It doesn’t matter.

Then one day as I was about to walk out of my bedroom the question’ “When does the rapture happen, before or after the tribulation went through my mind?”

It doesn’t matter I said.

The next question came as I was walking down the hall; “What is the difference between what you seen, and what John Seen?”

Well, I said; John seen Jesus riding on a horse, I seen Jesus standing on a cloud. Oh… they’re two different events.

The return of Christ that John saw and recorded in Revelation is when Christ returns to the earth with the armies of Heaven which includes the Church His bride.

The vision I saw of Christ standing on the cloud was Christ coming for His bride to fulfill the promise He gave. “I go to prepare a place and if I go I will come again that where I am you may be also.”

John 14:2: In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Until Christ fulfills His promise that where He is, we shall be also, He cannot return to the earth and reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

If the rapture occurs after the tribulation, then where Christ is; right now in heaven, we will never be. For the future is clearly shown in Revelation.

1) Christ returns and defeats the beast and His minions.

2) Christ reigns on earth 1000 years.

3) The absolute last and final battle in which God reigns fire down from heaven.

4) The great white throne judgment.

5) The New Heaven and the New Earth.

The only time we can be with Christ in heaven, is prior to the tribulation period. And according to the law, Christ, being a betrothed man, cannot go out to war before He has taken His bride.

One of the problems many people have when they interpret scripture is that they neglect to take into consideration that God is a God of law and order. God will not violate His own laws. He cannot violate His own laws.

Psalms 89:34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Malachi 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Samuel 15:29: And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Romans 11:29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Hebrews 13:8: Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[STovey]

“Just believing in Jesus will not save you from hell. I guarantee you that every demon, fallen angel, lost soul, whoever or whatever that is in hell knows without doubt that Jesus is Lord. They don’t just believe it, they know it. They know that He rules over them, and they know that their time is short.”

If it is true that just believing in Jesus will not save you from hell, then Jesus Himself lied, is a sinner and no one can be saved.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[STovey]

“Pre trib rapture doctrine comes from man, not God. That is why Jesus did not mention it. It is also why you became so angered with my post, to the point of implying that I was trolling and then put up a wall of verses that really have nothing to do with your point. You have let pride take hold of you.”

Jesus did not tell us all things during His ministry, He left some things for Paul to reveal.

John 15:20: Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

“Watch out that no one deceives you.” – Jesus

I suggest that you take your own advice.

[Stoutlander]

Acts 19:15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”

Mark 5 tells about the man possessed with many evil spirits. The demons recognized Him as “Jesus, Son of the Most High God.” They begged Him repeatedly. Would they beg if they didn’t believe and know Him? Of course not.

Knowing or believing isn’t enough. There are many passages about how you should live your life. Believing is only the first part. It’s not the golden ticket.

[Stoutlander]

Your take on what Paul said is a clear misinterpretation. You know this and that is why you refuse to admit the truth which is found written in the Bible. Does Paul not mention the trumpet? Which trumpet is that? It is very clearly written in the Bible. You have chosen to ignore truth.

Above you wrote; “The Lord’s coming at the rapture is a fly-by, not an actual return to the earth.” Is this the written Word or is this an “interpretation”? You view some passages about believing as an absolute that all you need to do is believe yet have no problem pulling the above out of your hat. You choose to ignore what is plainly written to justify this “fly-by”. With all due respect, you are filling an agenda brought forth by man instead of following the Word of God by flopping from absolutes to interpretations as you see fit. How can you not see this?

[MartHale7]

Ok, so you don ‘t want to listen to other viewpoints, understood.

[Pukalani-Farm]

I love open discussion. God’s promises are real. 1 Cor. 1: 9. He doesn’t need defending. He is God. Have a blessed week.

[MartHale7]

Actually Paul defended the gospel Philippians 1:16 blessings.

[STovey]

“Your take on what Paul said is a clear misinterpretation. You know this and that is why you refuse to admit the truth which is found written in the Bible. Does Paul not mention the trumpet? Which trumpet is that? It is very clearly written in the Bible. You have chosen to ignore truth.”

When are you going to stop being an egotistical, argumentative side show and post the verses along with what you think they mean?

Stop expecting people to know what you are thinking; that’s a form of witchcraft, and you are doing nothing but stirring up strife with your bitter and argumentative posts. Stop telling people what they know or do not know. You are not God and therefore do not know what people know.

“Above you wrote; “The Lord’s coming at the rapture is a fly-by, not an actual return to the earth.” Is this the written Word or is this an “interpretation”? You view some passages about believing as an absolute that all you need to do is believe yet have no problem pulling the above out of your hat. You choose to ignore what is plainly written to justify this “fly-by”. “

So, you actually read what I wrote.

Well, that’s something.

It’s too bad you are not able to comprehend what I wrote.

That would be evidence that you are more inclined to the flesh, and not the Spirit.

“With all due respect, you are filling an agenda brought forth by man instead of following the Word of God by flopping from absolutes to interpretations as you see fit. How can you not see this?”

What agenda, and who is the man?

The fact of the matter is; the day is coming when either you or I will be proven wrong. Your interpretation is meaningless without the Spirit guiding you. I have come to what I believe as a result of the Lord’s direction and visitation. I have no problem with you remaining with what you believe therefore remain with it. I will remain with what the Lord has lead me to believe.

Not everything I teach, was taught previously by men.

The Deuteronomy laws of a new wife apply to Christ as the bridegroom, and the Church as His bride and that in turn teaches us of the raptures, the harpazo, the resurrection of the dead in Christ first, the great transformation of we which remain, and the catching away.

The rapture is clearly described in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18. Not only is it clearly described, it is the very definition of what I seen in the vision.

Despite the rapture being clearly described in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18, you are simply too dull minded to both see it, accept it and believe it.

At the same time you accuse others, you are most certainly absolute of what other men have taught you regarding the lack of a rapture.

1Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now, if you don’t like this conversation and discussion of the rapture from the standpoint of a man that has seen it in a vision, you are welcome to exit the conversation.

On the other hand, if you are willing to stop being a triple AAA wretch, and post the verses you have referred to, and your understanding of them, so that people can read exactly where you are coming from, then by all means do so.

As it is, you are accomplishing nothing more than making yourself out to be an uneducated fool that claims to know all things, yet reveals by his lack of dissemination of information, that he knows absolutely nothing.

By the way, what I require of people I follow, not just because it is ethically sound, but because it forces people to be better communicators and you sir, are clearly lacking in the skill.

[Stoutlander]

I was clearly writing about 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, as this is the only passage written by Paul that I referenced earlier. You claim to hang your pre trib hat on that passage, and instead of talking about the truth of that passage, you lash out at me. I asked you specific questions about that passage and your only answers were to attempt a circular argument and to attack me. Shame on you.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, your “interpretation” of the parable of the Ten Virgins, and your “vision”. Three things you claim are the reasons you know there will be a pre trib rapture, yet instead of discussing these things you lash out at me. What you believe will be the most important event for all living Christians in their human lifetime should be very easy for you to discuss. How have you reacted? Please show good character and discuss your view(s) without personal attacks. If you find this too hard to do here, I would be glad to buy you lunch and discuss this in person, assuming we live within a few hours of each other.

[STovey]

“you lash out at me. I asked you specific questions about that passage and your only answers were to attempt a circular argument and to attack me. Shame on you.”

I am pretty sure everyone can sense the contentious spirit to which you wrote those questions. Even if that is not the case; why are you asking questions rather than putting forth your position with words that everyone can read and understand, rather than you expecting everyone to answer your questions as if you have some God given authority over all?

You still haven’t said anything more than; you’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong. You sound like a scratched and skipping record.

I have already discussed my position as well as provide scripture to support my position.

You on the other hand, keep posting scripture references without the scripture text. You continually refuse to state exactly how you interpret those verses and why.

Are you so dull that you believe you can win a debate without posting exactly what you believe along with the verse reference and text?

Why should anyone choose to agree with an individual that claims to be right, all the while refusing to explain how it is that he or she is right?

Post the verses and explain your position or shut up.

At this stage of the discussion, you are nothing more than a contentious prideful man kindling strife.

[Stoutlander]

Good stuff. Thank you.